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	<title>Comments on: Linkage: Allah = God? (Dale)</title>
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	<description>theories about the father, son, and holy spirit</description>
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		<title>By: trinities - Goofus and Gallant, Grok and Sophie (Dale)</title>
		<link>http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283/comment-page-1#comment-88704</link>
		<dc:creator>trinities - Goofus and Gallant, Grok and Sophie (Dale)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] about (numerically) the same God? We&#8217;ve previously linked and joined in with discussions with Jeremy Pierce and with Kevin [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] about (numerically) the same God? We&#8217;ve previously linked and joined in with discussions with Jeremy Pierce and with Kevin [...]</p>
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		<title>By: trinities - Linkage: Corcoran on the God of Muslims and the God of Christians (Dale)</title>
		<link>http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283/comment-page-1#comment-88684</link>
		<dc:creator>trinities - Linkage: Corcoran on the God of Muslims and the God of Christians (Dale)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283#comment-88684</guid>
		<description>[...] continuing theme in the Christian blogosphere, which we discussed before (God = Allah?) - now Calvin College philosopher Kevin Corcoran, on his blog Holy Skin and Bone, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] continuing theme in the Christian blogosphere, which we discussed before (God = Allah?) &#8211; now Calvin College philosopher Kevin Corcoran, on his blog Holy Skin and Bone, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283/comment-page-1#comment-87896</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Scott, I&#039;m not sure Aquinas applies this to Islam, though. Is there somewhere where he clearly treats Islam as idolatry rather than something else? If he calls the God of Islam an idol, then this applies. But that&#039;s the issue that&#039;s under dispute here, and I don&#039;t see how this answers that question even though what it goes on to say does follow if he answers it in the affirmative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I&#8217;m not sure Aquinas applies this to Islam, though. Is there somewhere where he clearly treats Islam as idolatry rather than something else? If he calls the God of Islam an idol, then this applies. But that&#8217;s the issue that&#8217;s under dispute here, and I don&#8217;t see how this answers that question even though what it goes on to say does follow if he answers it in the affirmative.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283/comment-page-1#comment-87895</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283#comment-87895</guid>
		<description>Scott - for us lazy/busy folks, care to tell us Aquinas&#039;s answer? :-)

Jeremy - I certainly agree with your last sentence. Any Muslim can say, &quot;O Creator of the World...&quot;, or address the &quot;God of Moses and Abraham&quot; - by means of these descriptions, it seems to me, they&#039;d be referring to the one God. 

It seems to me that a difficulty with the baptism view about proper names is that we want to say that names can be &quot;re-baptized&quot;. Go back to my parable. At the beginning, it is clear that the term &quot;George W. Bush&quot; refers to me, even though these people falsely assume that this person (me) is the current ruler of America. But, why couldn&#039;t this change. A hundred years on, say, people there are still talking about &quot;Bush&quot; and confusedly thinking that he is me. But now they&#039;ve conversed a little more with outsiders - say, tourists - and have been told a lot about (the real) Bush. Despite how their usage of &quot;Bush&quot; began, won&#039;t it eventually refer to Dubya, and not to me? Does it go through a stage of referring to both of us? I don&#039;t know.

Whatever we say about the reference of their singular terms, I doubt the religious relevance of the issue. Suppose, as is implausible, that Muslims couldn&#039;t refer to God - they&#039;re in a situation like the people on my island, soon after my initial visit. Now, suppose that the real Bush shows up, on a friendly state visit. He&#039;s aware that these people have been honoring me - the person they falsely believe is the president. Won&#039;t Bush, at some point after contacting them, sort of accept this honor (at least some of it), or rather, act as if it had been given to him? After all, if they knew *he* was the president, they, or some of them, would have (eventually) given it to him. Of course, when he first shows up, they may all scream &quot;That&#039;s not the President! It&#039;s an impostor. We met the president, and he&#039;s pasty white philosophy prof who lives in New York!&quot; So even if (we assume what I think is false, that) Muslims can&#039;t refer to God, it isn&#039;t as if God ignores them, has nothing to do with them, or fails to love them, or doesn&#039;t hear (and sometimes respond to) their prayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott &#8211; for us lazy/busy folks, care to tell us Aquinas&#8217;s answer? <img src='http://trinities.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Jeremy &#8211; I certainly agree with your last sentence. Any Muslim can say, &#8220;O Creator of the World&#8230;&#8221;, or address the &#8220;God of Moses and Abraham&#8221; &#8211; by means of these descriptions, it seems to me, they&#8217;d be referring to the one God. </p>
<p>It seems to me that a difficulty with the baptism view about proper names is that we want to say that names can be &#8220;re-baptized&#8221;. Go back to my parable. At the beginning, it is clear that the term &#8220;George W. Bush&#8221; refers to me, even though these people falsely assume that this person (me) is the current ruler of America. But, why couldn&#8217;t this change. A hundred years on, say, people there are still talking about &#8220;Bush&#8221; and confusedly thinking that he is me. But now they&#8217;ve conversed a little more with outsiders &#8211; say, tourists &#8211; and have been told a lot about (the real) Bush. Despite how their usage of &#8220;Bush&#8221; began, won&#8217;t it eventually refer to Dubya, and not to me? Does it go through a stage of referring to both of us? I don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>Whatever we say about the reference of their singular terms, I doubt the religious relevance of the issue. Suppose, as is implausible, that Muslims couldn&#8217;t refer to God &#8211; they&#8217;re in a situation like the people on my island, soon after my initial visit. Now, suppose that the real Bush shows up, on a friendly state visit. He&#8217;s aware that these people have been honoring me &#8211; the person they falsely believe is the president. Won&#8217;t Bush, at some point after contacting them, sort of accept this honor (at least some of it), or rather, act as if it had been given to him? After all, if they knew *he* was the president, they, or some of them, would have (eventually) given it to him. Of course, when he first shows up, they may all scream &#8220;That&#8217;s not the President! It&#8217;s an impostor. We met the president, and he&#8217;s pasty white philosophy prof who lives in New York!&#8221; So even if (we assume what I think is false, that) Muslims can&#8217;t refer to God, it isn&#8217;t as if God ignores them, has nothing to do with them, or fails to love them, or doesn&#8217;t hear (and sometimes respond to) their prayers.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283/comment-page-1#comment-87892</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For those interested, Aquinas discusses this issue somewhat in ST 1a.13.10: &#039;Whether this name &quot;God&quot; is applied to God univocally by nature, by participation, and according to opinion?&#039; http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1013.htm#10</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those interested, Aquinas discusses this issue somewhat in ST 1a.13.10: &#8216;Whether this name &#8220;God&#8221; is applied to God univocally by nature, by participation, and according to opinion?&#8217; <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1013.htm#10" rel="nofollow">http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1013.htm#10</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://trinities.org/blog/archives/283/comment-page-1#comment-87886</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dale, I&#039;d hesitate a little if Muhammad interacted with a demon or Satan to get the information that he thought was being given to him by God. But I don&#039;t think that would be decisive, precisely because he wrote down all the stuff in a book and presented it to a group of people, all of whom continued to speak those things about the being historically worshiped by Jews and Christians.

It&#039;s an interesting case of competing potential referents. I suppose it would be like someone showing up disguised as me and taking my place for a year, with everyone thinking they&#039;re speaking of me but really speaking of the imposter. At times, though, they&#039;ll speak of me when they think they&#039;re speaking of the person in front of them. So wouldn&#039;t the scenario you propose both involve true statements about God, false statements about God, true statements about the imposter-demon, and false statements about the imposter-demon? It just makes the picture more complex. It doesn&#039;t mean there is no way in which Muslims ever speak of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, I&#8217;d hesitate a little if Muhammad interacted with a demon or Satan to get the information that he thought was being given to him by God. But I don&#8217;t think that would be decisive, precisely because he wrote down all the stuff in a book and presented it to a group of people, all of whom continued to speak those things about the being historically worshiped by Jews and Christians.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting case of competing potential referents. I suppose it would be like someone showing up disguised as me and taking my place for a year, with everyone thinking they&#8217;re speaking of me but really speaking of the imposter. At times, though, they&#8217;ll speak of me when they think they&#8217;re speaking of the person in front of them. So wouldn&#8217;t the scenario you propose both involve true statements about God, false statements about God, true statements about the imposter-demon, and false statements about the imposter-demon? It just makes the picture more complex. It doesn&#8217;t mean there is no way in which Muslims ever speak of God.</p>
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